Why is it this hard to find a job?

This is Denise's journey.
Where she talks to me about what gave her the inspiration to develop something tangible to aid those with disabilities trying to get into employment in Canada.

There is a link to Creation of Hope for Job Seekers With Disabilities: D.I.C.E. - A Self-Explorative Journey Into Disability and Working Life: Self-Help E-Book on the website https://chataholic.me

Please note transcript accuracy may vary.

Music:
(Neffex - A year ago)
(Neffex - dont want to let myself go)

Website: 
https://chataholic.me

Transcript

Denise: 0:00

Because we're made to feel different. We're made to feel, you know like living in an ableist society. You know, your word damaged goods, basically. And yet, if people only knew how much disability there was, you know, because nobody is, and, and not only, you know, from initial disability, but late adult onset disability from things like car accidents, you know, suddenly you could be quite functioning one day and then the next day you can have acquired brain injury and not be able to function.

AO: 0:40

Welcome to another episode of ChatAholic this episode, I'm speaking to Denise. This will be in two parts. This is part one. And then next week will be part two. Denise is just going to Denise and I, we talk about a lot of different things. Pre-warning we go off on several tangents. So if you're likely to feel offended because you live in Canada. I suggest maybe you just don't listen to Because we. Our slightly critical of how the system works. So, if you think you're going to be offended, I suggest. Maybe you don't But if you listen, enjoy it. And Denise will be back. Next week for part two of her story. Just finishing it off and telling us a bit more about. dice. Which is a tool to try and help people with disabilities, getting into the workplace. part, one explains why she was motivated to want to. Build something that actually. Made getting into the workplace, easier for people with disabilities. Hi, Denise, how are you?

Denise: 2:00

Pretty good. Thank you

AO: 2:01

so Denise, could you tell me a bit about you? Anything that you would like to share? Anything you are happy sharing. Just a bit about your background

Denise: 2:10

So I was born and raised in for Cornerbrook Newfoundland in the sixties. So I'm a baby boomer and, and so I have a learning disability. And during that time in Cornerbrook Newfoundland they didn't have any kind of assessment tools that they have in schools now in, in later years. So it wasn't diagnosed until they, when I was having trouble finding and keeping work. And so the people would think, oh, you know it's it's like the absent minded and professor or, or the klutz, you know, I was the last person to leave in school in the cold rooms. Now, you know, with kids, they're usually the first ones out in the locker room at the end of the day. Right? Well, I would be the last one. I would be always tripping up. I had trouble with math and that kind of thing. And the other thing And I was in a program called women in new roles. And I always said to them, like, I always had trouble with. And like I have a couple of other disabilities, like hearing impairment, anxiety disorder, generalized anxiety disorder, and I am prone to depression, but the, the main thing, the main disability that really affected work performance was the learning. And it's a nonverbal learning disability. So things like math visual, perceptual, visual spacial organization, memory, time management. And I remember when I got the I talked to the learning disabilities once I was diagnosed and contacted the Ontario learning disabilities association of, of Toronto or Ontario, you know, the person talked to me said if it was a a verbal learning disability, in some ways it would be better. because it would be limited to, you know, like reading and writing and verbal expression, that kind of thing. But with the nonverbal motor it affects everything from the first time I get up in the morning to the time I go to sleep at night you know, motor klutziness really, it takes so much effort to concentrate on doing simple tasks, like you know, multitasking or you know, like doing things that require motive

AO: 4:38

Yeah. The things that myself, for example, take for granted, it just comes as second nature. But for you, it's not the same

Denise: 4:46

Exactly

AO: 4:47

Do you mind me just asking, did you have any support system? Someone you. Could speak to somewhere you go, cause you said at the time there was no testing available for this. So you just felt like a klutz or that there was something wrong Is there anyone that you. Someone who gave you? The reassurance that you needed

Denise: 5:12

I could say about myself was that my mom was a very strong influence me or in my life. so I took that. I incorporated that into my my value system. And she she grew up in world war II And now, I mean, bombings blackouts were, she grew up with that. And the one thing that really influenced her was her, her faith, her Catholic faith, and she was telling me what really was an inspiration was she had, her mom was sick. Her mom died at a very early age, well, her early age. And she saw a lot of death in the family from childhood. And so anyway, her mom was there. She had a stroke and this priest in the parish would, if, if she, he saw a little light behind the black curtain would go in, knock on the door and visit her mom. And you know, in the middle of the night, and I mean, you don't hear of that. Like he was a real parish priest and she said he would be out there after the bombings you know, helping people, helping the police, helping the victims. And I thought, wow. You know, so that stayed with me. So my faith has been, what's got me through, you know, through all of these fears of repeated failure, repeated job loss, and, you know, finding a sense of meaning in all of this, you know, this heartache and this grief.

AO: 6:51

one of the takeaways that speaking to different people. That's what I seem to be getting is people who have faith seem to have, I, I don't know. It's just this comfort that you get from it. The ability to just keep going That should never be taken away from someone. And I find it so admirable. And actually it makes me a little bit jealous that you do have something that just, you just feel so supported something you can't see, but it's there, it's in you. And I just, I dunno, I find that lovely.

Denise: 7:26

Okay. Because see, for many years I was angry at God. You know, like why me? you know, I tried everything, you know I tried university, I, ended up almost you know, like, like the secular world and the, the faith world. They were just two two different realms. And, and I understood that, you know, one of the reasons we have this kind of, you know, evil, basically, although people don't recognize it as evil per se, but I'll say evil, loosely, meaning bad, you know, bad things in this world. And for me you know, it's like, in other words, like why do bad things happen to good people? And where is this good news, you know that the gospel talks about. It's like all my life, it's just this valley of tears. I keep getting up and then I keep getting knocked down again. So, you know, even though my faith has kept me, there's, you know, I still struggle with it. It's something it's like exercise and it's something that, you know, yes, I can be angry. Yes. I can be resentful. Yes, I can wanna give up. And, but, but what brought me through is a belief in the fact that, well, well, my mom said it one day. She said, well, if you don't have God, what do you have? You know, if you can't rely on him, who can you rely on? And then when I thought about free will and the fact that bad things happen to good people, because God has given us free will and people can think. You know, can choose. So I, I had to change my perspective to, you know, I've lost this job. I have this disability, or I face discrimination because of it. Not because God wants me to suffer, but because being on this imperfect earth, things happen because people have free will. So it's, but it is, you know, it is a struggle.

AO: 9:52

I'm glad that you have admitted that it is a struggle. The reason I say that is because I've spoken to other people who are faith based. And what I seem to get from speaking to them is, I don't know, it's almost as if. No, it's it's, you know, it's not a struggle because you have God. And I appreciate that. That some people, I, I do appreciate that, but my brain struggles to compute that. Okay. But surely Sometimes you still have to question why certain things are happening to you. And I had this conversation with my friend recently, who's a Christian. And I said to him, cuz he said to me, well, why do you not? Why do you feel you don't believe? And I said, do you know what? Because I live in a world where in my head, and this is just me. I say to people, good things happen to good people. And I find that is not always true and bad things happen to good people. I just won't, my brain cannot adjust to understanding how that would be. Okay. Because it just doesn't, it doesn't sit well with me. So I, and that's my that's always going to be my struggle. So I'm not happy that you find it a struggle, but I'm happy to actually finally speak to someone who has said sometimes it is a struggle. I don't hear that often.

Denise: 11:30

Yeah. People think that if, if you're Catholic, if you're face faith, you, you know, you're just going through this you know, you're to suffering, but you, you know, you have feelings, you're, you're human, you know, I am human. You know, it's like people, you know, it's like someone who's been murdered, you know, and it always boggled my mind when the parent or the relative of the, the person who was murdered say, I forgive them. And I thought, how can you possibly forgive them right now? You're in shock. You've just experienced a loss. Is this genuine? So I guess, you know, a bit about me, I am genuine. What you see is what you get.

AO: 12:17

No that's fair enough. I always find it really interesting talking to. Faith-based people. You realized at a young age, the. You were finding things more of a struggle. Then, for example, your peers. So then as you went through life, how did you get on

Denise: 12:34

I tried to go into the bachelor social work program. You see, I wanted to be a doctor when I was in school, but they wouldn't let me do the chemistry because I was so bad at math. So I went into reactive mode. Didn't try anything. In fact, I had to take a couple of courses over again in summer school to graduate and back there, it was grade 11 here in Ontario's grade, grade 12. And so I said, you know, like I lost on motivation, lost interest. If I can't be a doctor, I don't wanna be anything. Well, that's the adolescent stage.

AO: 13:10

Yes. Yes, it is. That great stage

Denise: 13:12

Right. So then I thought, well, so then I thought, well, you know, if I can't have that. If I can help people physically, then I can help them emotionally, you know, psychologically. So then I thought, well, I'll try going in for social work. So you know, I ha I was okay in the first two years because Memorial university, I have a college in corner Brook. So you could do the two year of the four year program there. But when I went out into St John's, first of all, going out to find a place to live, we got into a car accident. So recovering from that trauma psychologically, as well as physically then leaving home for the first time, which was really stressful and disorienting for me handling a first, a full course load that I couldn't adapt to. And having a housing crisis in midterm. So when I came back, you know, I couldn't even complete exam. And then I got sick. Like I got an infection and I was just totally overwhelmed. And I thought, it's not even any point in, in delaying the tests and getting like an extension on the exams, because I was just so far behind. I couldn't even study anyway. So I went back home and, you know, my parents were less than proud and less than happy with the situation. And of course they thought, why didn't you just try, you know, just get the, you know, medical past and everything and do the exams, but they didn't understand the cumulative effects of all that trauma and stress. So mom said, well, you've gotta take a secretarial course. You can't sit here. Well, of course the secretarial course exacerbated all my learning disabilities. Cuz we got speed. We got molder processing, everything. So then my siblings were in Toronto and in Newfoundland, what you did was everyone because of work, finding employment in Newfoundland was so difficult. Everybody would go up to Toronto to get work. And so of course my siblings were there before me and I thought, well, I'll try this, but of course it was just going right from the fat into the fire. And it was years and years of unemployment I would be hired for well, if I ever was lucky enough to get hired for, I would lose a job within about a week, a week to a month and I was gone. So, but I used to, like, I became very attractive to work with a distress. and assault of women's helpline. So I saw an advertisement one day for a part-time program, an open house for the part-time social work program at re so I attended it and went, went into that program and applied, part-time got accepted now. It took me 10 years off and on, because I had housing crisis. I had no money. I had all of these problems And I guess that showed my lack of confidence. And then of course the potential employer didn't but so, but, but for example, with so I thought here was a helping profession. It, it you know, talked about it touted their, you know you know, social justice and structural social work as opposed to counseling component of it.

AO: 16:50

What does happen in Canada? If you have a house in crisis, if you don't have money had I asked my sister-in-law this question and cuz she used to live in the UK and she said, it's not, it's not like it is in the UK where you have the benefit system, you have council housing. How, how does it work in Canada for people who are struggling

Denise: 17:19

It's brutal. Right? Well, there's two systems you can, in terms of financial income security, there is the social assistance program, which is for anybody who, you know, for whatever reason are out of a job. Now, and then there's the O D S P that's the Ontario disability support plan. And that's for people who are deemed unable to work because of disability. And you get a little, slightly bit more money each month, but the problem is neither program gives enough money to even pay the rent, let alone food groceries. And so, you know, and in terms of housing, they, you, they have like what they call Metro housing, probably what you call, I think, was it a state housing or in England council housing,

AO: 18:24

we have social housing. So. You can register with a local authority. So for example, if you. There's various local authorities, depending on whereabouts you live, so you can register with them. I don't know exactly how it works. If you're homeless. So, I don't really know the ins and outs of that, but I know that you committed to with local authority depending on your situation, in some situations, they can put you in a hostel until they can find you a temporary or permanent home. If not they local authority can put you on the waiting list. And those people are then provided accommodation or list of accommodation that they can bid on. We have a bidding service, so you can. What can you do it? You can. Then be matched into council accommodation. Depending on your needs. Or housing associations, housing associations. I've also the alternative to go and vote Going through the council. But with the local authorities, which is actually the council. They work in partnership with housing associations who have a number. Of designated native properties for people on the waiting list or. People in temporary accommodation people in hostels. To my own standing. That's how it works in the United Kingdom. To my understanding that's how it works

Denise: 20:02

yes. when mom went back to England, she she bought a, a council house outright with the money that she still, I mean, she loved it, you know, so, but here now they have a new concept called life lease, but you know, again, it's cuz I applied for one and the waiting lists are in insufferibly long, like 10 years, 20 years. I mean, you'd be dead by the time you got into, you know, something like that. And the conditions are deplorable in Metro housing. So, you know, If we look at the government pie here in Canada, you know, how the government allots so much money to each category like defense housing, health, that kind of thing. So social housing, social services are like a fraction of the, the piece of the pie. Most of it goes into defense and I'm thinking, you know, this is so I'm just, you know, you have people struggling, you know, just to make ends meet, you know, people on disability with disabilities. People who've been here all their life and all you're focusing on is, you know, commerce you know, developing Nuclear weapons, testing, you know armaments defense. even though they have a social safety net, there are very wide gapping holes in that social safety net. You know? So for example, we could, you know, and, and with the ODSP they won't accept you on it. I was on it for a number of years and it was so like, you know, you would go to if you need a glasses, they get coverage very, very basic like dental coverage. If you needed a cavity done, or if you needed drugs or whatever, they'll pay a certain amount of drugs for you. But, you know, there was definite there's definitely not enough. Like if you wanted glasses, it was never enough. You know, with the frames and everything, like back in my days, it would pull out a drawer underneath for frames that you could get on social assistance. That aren't the, you know, the, the regular, you know what I mean?

AO: 22:42

They had a separate draw, a separate draw which I'm sure made people feel great about themselves. Excellent.

Denise: 22:49

Yeah. Yes, exactly. And, and what was more, it was like, if your parents say, for example, my mother was able to get some capital because of the house that she sold when she got came back to England now, because I was on ODS P their rules were that you had to basically spend everything exhaust all source of savings. So if mom were to die and I was still on the ODS P then I would have to spend my savings first. I thought, well, that didn't make any sense, you know? So I got off it between the stigma between the fact that you couldn't really live on the ODS P and nowadays people who apply for it, they're rejected and they have to do these automatically, and they have to do the what do you call it? Appeals. And people will have to get, you know, go through the, the stress of a legal, you know, hearing, you know, even though an adjudication, try to get all these files, all this, you know, doctor's notes improve that they were on disability. And sometimes people have been rejected like three and four times before they're finally on it. And I mean, I'm talking to people with epilepsy, with, you know, serious socially acceptable, you know, criteria for disabilities, for medical disabilities. It is brutal.

AO: 24:25

What do people say about this? Does anyone are they being challenged? I know I have to be very clear. Canada is not America. So I do know that, but I know in America they love to challenge things. France also love to challenge things. The Canadians are saying, this is how it is. This is how it's always been. So, you know, it's fine. I, because I don't know, it blows my mind a bit that a government that's been elected, that's supposed to represent everyone. Actually. It's not doing that. It's not representative of everyone.

Denise: 25:07

And you're right. You brought up, yes. You hit you know, you've really brought up a very good point and made an astute observation about Canada in terms of the the status quo. And now, now see, you know, yes, Canada is very north American, but America, the US is more prone to activism, radical, you know, like standing up for ju I mean, they were, they were created on the basis of, Retaliation and, you know, and war in a sense, right? The civil war, the, you know, so there, there their concept or their model is life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Now, the can Canadian governments. Is peace order and good government. Now, when, when the, when it was under the monarchy of the British system, because Canada was in its own country, it was, you know, basically governed by the British for a very long thought.

AO: 26:16

my sister-in-law says the people in Canada is it's the very British way in her experience, she said, it's very similar in Canada. And I don't know, it's just, it doesn't have to be like this. And I, I'm not the right person because I am a firm believer in if things are wrong and they're affecting human beings who are living in that country. Human beings do need to stand up and not say, I don't agree with war. I'm not an advocate of war, but I do believe that people should be using their voices because that's how change happens, but that's, that's just, that's just me

Denise: 26:58

The peace order in good government now depending, see, I think Canadians are generally afraid. Of standing up for their rights. There's a fear there, but there's also a a desire for the status quo. You know, they're afraid of change. They're afraid of conflict, you know? So I think part of that is peace in order, but unfortunately the government has been eroded. So it's taken on the, the worst of both worlds. So it's taken on this paternalistic role, so basically suck it up, you know the authority to, you know, this is the government do, as I say, not as I do.

AO: 27:53

That's not dissimilar to our government's ethos. There, as i say We will do whatever we want

Denise: 28:00

And when people Well, I think part of also yours is more of a socialist based system. where the the Commonwealth, you know, that that's incorporated in the actual title Commonwealth. So the good of the common people. And, and I think part of the problem is that Canada combines the life, Liberty and pursuit of happiness. So the capitalistic version, the think for yourself version they, they, they try to play both sides of the fence. They sit in the middle of the fence, really sit on the fence. And when it serves them, you know, it's all this, you know, in terms of voting, it's all populous, you know, what do the people want

AO: 28:55

So, when were you properly diagnosed.

Denise: 28:59

I was fine academically. And when I I got diagnosed through a program called women in new roles, and that was a JBS agency. And they said, oh, you know, you're just so nervous. That's why you lose jobs all the time. I said, no. I said, I have a learning disability. I knew from a very early age that I had one. And they said, oh no, you're just anxious. So I said so when I, they put me in a job and it didn't work out, they said, okay, we'll pay for a vocational assessment for you. And sure enough, I had learning disabilities the learning. so then I have access to student accommodations at the virus. And I mean, I was on top of the moon. I had my own computer, a private room you know, extra time for exams. It was like, you know, student heaven. Right. What, you know, how could I ask for more? But it. Stopped at the front gates of Ryerson and did not transfer to the field placement. Now, the system there in Ryerson was that you had to interview, even though it was a required course, a field placement non-paid practicum you had to interview for the field placement and get accepted for it. And if you weren't, you lost your field practicum and you couldn't gradually. So I had, and they had three interviews and you were out now we had this really this, this field placement coordinator and she was extremely prejudice against persons with disabilities. Well against me, but from other students experiences. She also gave them a hard time as well. I learned now what happened was I finally got a placement. She knew about my disability. She disclosed to the field placement, like the agency supervisors. So that was a breach of confidentiality in her part.

AO: 31:08

one of the questions that I wanted to ask you, because I know over here, we've got the equality disability act that came in 2010 and I was doing some research. Cause I thought, well, is there an equivalent in Canada? Then I asked people in Canada and they said we don't know. And then I didn't find anything really definitive. It was almost if I, I did find something. And it was basically more there just to say, we've covered an area. We've covered it. You know, Canada is a place where everyone is equal and then that's it. That that's pretty much it, there, there was nothing further. Whereas our one goes into a lot more detail

Denise: 31:50

The only one that we have and, and, you know, it took them so long to even incorporate the United nations declaration of human rights, you know, for disabilities. Right. And but, but you know, you, you hit the nail on the head. It is lip service. It is varied in this legal terminology in the constitution. So you're probably talking about it, it, the, the right to freedom, from discrimination, based on all of these other things, including disability. Now, what they did bring in was the Otario with disabilities act now it was supposed to The alleviate the barriers to employment in different areas, there was one accessibility just in general, like to shops, you know, physical accessibility to essential goods and services and employment was another area now, because I was, you know, I studied the career work counselor diploma after graduating eventually from Ryerson university. So my specialty was disability and employment. So, you know, they had all of these wonderful objectives and and goals in writing, but applying it and especially like for like say the government, the government was supposed to be really you know, accommodating. So like say if you saw a job ad right. and it will say if you need accommodations for interviews or, you know, job accom, please let us know. Well, you know, and, but, but the reality was that even if a person with a disability was lucky enough to be hired and a government position then what they called, you know, accommodations, they would find there was a lot of discrimination. They, you know, they didn't live up to their, you know accommodations that they were supposed to give to the person. a very disturbing pattern is it all comes down to money as well. And like what people with disabilities are finding now is that the government rather give them easier access to medically assisted death than provide the necessary housing and income and, you know, quality of life and support systems in order to give that quality of life. And, you know, so that people with disabilities don't feel that sense of hopelessness and despair. And that's a very disturbing trend. It's almost like the survival of the fittest, but this arian grace type of thing, you know will, will get rid of the people who aren't, you know the cream of the crop. it's a very disturbing, see, Canada is very liberal with this medically assisted need. It's called medically medical assistance in dying, you know, and, and if you think about it, all of those, you know, people who were brought up in the legalist charge with murder, when, you know, in, in, in former days when relatives were in so much pain and everything and, you know, and they were put in prison, you know, and now the government has turned, you know, 360 degrees the other way and say, we'll help you do it. You wanna die? You think your life is not worth living anymore. And initially there were supposed to be restrictions. But they've lifted more and more restrictions. Like for example, people with mental illness, it's like, okay, you are so depressed that life is not worth living. Your quality of life is, you know, depleted. With any quality you have from you have the middle, you have like the extreme ends of it. And you know, so, so now with Canada, they are, so they feel they don't have a good sense of self-efficacy. They have an external locus of control where they think that they have no influence. To change to be efficacious, politically and self efficacious. So they feel that external events control them. Government controls them. There's nothing we can do about it. And we don't have the power. We feel disempowered and I've always wondered, what was the catalyst for change? Like, for example, the women's vote, you know, what was it that eventually mobilized all the women to say we have a right to vote, you know, it, it, and I couldn't, you know, pinpoint any exact, but somehow there was a sense of identity. A sense of enough is enough, a sense of community, spirit, and a designer to stand up for what is right. And I've always wondered, you know, with people with disabilities, you know, they are. Like I'm on a couple of Facebook groups now. And, and one post, you know, one person who posted said, you know, what is wrong with you? People, I am so angry. Why am I the only one writing letters, you know, protesting these conditions under which we live, you know? And I can understand that sense of frustration, you know, because you, for example, even when I wrote letters to the government, you'll end up getting like the city hall and I wrote it on another issue because I'm, I have environmental illness. And one of the problems I have is wood burning smoke. So if I go out on the trail and I'm in a residential neighborhood now, so in the winter is insufferable. So you know, and I will say. You know, and I'll write and you'll get the ringer rug, you know, and basically not my department, we have rules and regulations like bylaws affecting this, and you're just going round in circles.

AO: 38:39

it's just bureaucracy

Denise: 38:40

bureaucracy is right. Yeah. And I think that's what happens. People get fed up, they feel like there's no use. They get tired, you know, they're beaten a bruise, battered and beaten, and yet they're expected or they, they need to start, you know, fighting back and standing up for themselves. And that's a very hard to do when you don't have that, you know, sense of sense of where with though that sense of a self-esteem, because we're made to feel different. We're made to feel, you know like living in an ableist society. You know, your word damaged goods, basically. And yet, if we only knew if people only knew how much disability there was, you know, because nobody is, and, and not only, you know, from initial disability, but late adult onset disability from things like car accidents, you know, suddenly you could be quite functioning one day and then the next day you can have acquired brain injury and not be able to function. as people living here, we are really disturbed with what we're seeing, you know, so it's, you know, and pattern is that, you know, the government is. facilitating that despair basically. that's why, people feel so oppressed, you know, there, there's such a sense of oppression here for people with disabilities. And that's why I thought, well, okay, here's a perfect example. Now I was a person with a disability. I went into the social work field thinking you know, in that field, we really cared about people and wanted people to, you know, overcome barriers and, you know and help exactly they wanted help. We were exactly, and you know, social justice and everything. I mean like the, see the, the, the failure component comes in when you know it. Oh we were really impressed in the interview, but we're not gonna hire you. We hired someone else and I guess that showed my lack of confidence. And then of course the potential employer didn't but so, but, but for example, with so I thought here was a helping profession. It, it you know, talked about it touted their, you know you know, social justice and structural social work as opposed to counseling component of it. So in the so I was fine academically. And when I I got diagnosed through a program called women in new roles, and that was a JBS agency. And they said, oh, you know, you're just so nervous. That's why you lose jobs all the time. I said, no. I said, I have a learning disability. I knew from a very early age that I had one. The discrimination that I faced in university was absolutely appalling. See, when I was I did fine academically at Myerson got a and B pluses and things cuz at point analytical, you know, I, I can analyze things to death to, to a fault And they said, oh no, you're just anxious. So I said so when I, they put me in a job and it didn't work out, they said, okay, we'll pay for a vocational assessment for you. And sure enough, the learning. Exactly. And so, so then I have access to student accommodations at the virus. And I mean, I was on top of the moon. I had my own computer, a private room you know, extra time for exams. It was like, you know, student heaven. Right. What, you know, how could I ask for more? But it. Stopped at the front gates of Ryerson and did not transfer to the field placement. Now, the system there in Ryerson was that you had to interview, even though it was a required course, a field placement non-paid practicum you had to interview for the field placement and get accepted for it. And if you weren't, you lost your field practicum and you couldn't gradually. So I had, and they had three interviews and you were out now we had this really this, this field placement coordinator and she was extremely prejudice against persons with disabilities. Well against me, but from other students experiences. She also gave them a hard time as well. I learned now what happened was I finally got a placement. She knew about my disability. She disclosed to the field placement, like the agency supervisors. So that was a breach of confidentiality in her part. And then, so the, the field placement that I did get was really over overpowering. Like it was more like a higher level of, of responsibility, so I didn't work out. And then she said, you're an insurance liability. And I mean, she was very, very cruel. And she said, you have to do a volunteer placement to prove yourself. And of course that was a setup because first of all, loved her coordinators. Oh, don't do written evaluations. And she said, you have to get someone who will do written evaluations, just like a field placement. And I said, well, that, you know, you can't do that. And, but I found one access for success at Hamburg college. And it was a program for people with disabilities who wanted to get back into the workforce. They did some remedial, like math writing, job search skills, a bit of career assessment counseling, that kind of thing. And that's where dice was born.

AO: 45:23

This is where we leave Denise, and we will be back with her next episode for her to talk to me about the Inception of dice. which is. Creation of hope for job seekers with disabilities. A it's self exploration journey into disability and working life so please join me. And in the meantime, take care. Bye. Haven't said anyhoo. Once this whole episode. Yay me