The Journey of Two Passions

This is Dr Stanley M Berry MD’s Journey.

Can you find the words to describe a man who has had such a remarkable career. A time when Fetal ultrasounds were ground breaking and the medical professionals were amazed at what could be achieved. 
This whilst pursuing a life long passion to be a writer.

This episode I speak to Dr Stanley M Berry MD and I still can't describe the words!

https://time.com/collection/coronavirus-heroes/5816888/doctor-coronavirus-retirement/
https://stanleymberry.com
https://www.amazon.com/Fight-Full-Disclosure-Stanley-Berry-ebook/dp/B09GR4C59T/
https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/a-fight-for-full-disclosure-stanley-berry/1140183237

Please note transcription accuracy may vary.

Music by - Neffex - don't want to let myself down 
                        Neffex - A year go
                        discord.gg/neffex

Transcript

AO: 0:00

Welcome to another episode of ChatAholic. This episode I speak to Dr. Stanley Barry, who. Okay. I know what I say all the time, but actually he's a very fascinating man who has done so many things that I actually just could not relate to. I couldn't relate to him having this remarkable career. I can't relate to. In the midst of a pandemic, actually volunteering to go back in. And whilst all that's going on, still trying to write his book. So join me and Dr. Stanley Berry to find out more about him. And yes, I am going to say it. I loved him too.

Dr Stanley Berry: 0:50

I remember telling a friend of mine who would graduate, and I sure hope I like this specialty because if I don't, I don't know what I'm gonna do. And the point of fact, I fell in love with it. And so I decided to pursue a residency in obstetrics and gynecology. It had a little of everything.

AO: 1:10

Would you mind telling me a bit about you? Anything you are happy sharing.

Dr Stanley Berry: 1:15

thank you for inviting me and for agreeing to do this interview with me. As for myself I'm pretty happy at this stage in my life I have had a wonderful career I spent time in the UK doing some training in the early part of my career that was back in. 1990 actually when I spent six glorious months, and I don't say that facetiously in your country. And I worked at Kings College Hospital to learn some techniques that were advanced by British physicians, but weren't really widely practiced by American physicians. And you're. physician there was named Nicolaides, and he's still around. He was at Kings College in the Harris Birthright and he agreed to allow me to come over and basically do a six month fellowship with him. And I'm always indebted to him. And I had a ball when I was there. At this point in my life I am still practicing high risk obstetrics we call it maternal fetal medicine here, where we take care of women and their fetuses who have problems, whether it's fetal abnormalities or maternal illness such as premature labor diabetes or hypertension. I'm also involved in research, more in the administrative aspect of research than actually doing research. I also write and my book, which is called A Fight for Full Disclosure, was published in September of last year And it is a medically oriented novel. It's loosely based on a specific occurrence but 95% of the characters are just made up outta whole cloth. So it really is a fiction. I had a plan that I was just gonna self-publish, which is pretty easy to do nowadays. You send it to Amazon and they'll basically do everything for you, of course, for a price, and then they'll put it up on Amazon. I tell people that with my great writing talent, it only took me 12 years to finish the book. But thank God I finished and I'm still pinching myself. My first attempt to send it to a publisher resulted in a. Rejection six hours after I sent the book out. So I figured that's the fastest rejection in history, and I worked on it for two more years and sent it out and a publisher agreed to publish it. So I'm quite pleased about that

AO: 3:45

Can I ask you a question? Did the publisher give you any reason why they rejected it or did they just say No, we're not interested?

Dr Stanley Berry: 3:54

They just said no, we're not interested. I guess they figure that they're not gonna be your editor as well. I figured that I would collect my 25 or 30 rejections like everybody else, and then I would self-publish. So that's why I feel so, so fortunate, that things turned out the way they did.

AO: 4:12

that's a really good lesson to other people out there who want to write or are looking at writing. And actually, I've spoken to a few people who have something they want to publish and they all say the issue they have is finding someone who will publish it. And I think after a while they get a bit disheartened and then they just give up.

Dr Stanley Berry: 4:31

Yeah, Like I said, I had a plan that I was just gonna self-publish, I had the writing bug for a long time and I would dabble at a few poems here and maybe a short story there, but I never had the discipline as a young person, like out of high school or college, cuz I really did want to be quote unquote a writer. But the other thing was I just found that. I didn't have enough life experience that I could look on and say this would be good subject material. And I think it takes a degree of courage that I didn't have, because if you're gonna dedicate yourself to a life of writing as opposed to a higher education, you're really taking a risk, and I've always been a risk taker, but probably not that much of a risk taker. I get the risk taking from my mother and the non-risk taking from my father. So I'm a mix of the two.

AO: 5:30

What did your mom do and what did your dad do? I'm just, again, cause I'm nosy. Just a bit about your background. I just love to know things about people

Dr Stanley Berry: 5:39

My mom was a psychiatric social worker, which meant that she did a lot of counseling and, She, got her master's degree and then went on to get a, marriage counseling certificate, which took another year, and she was working for the Veterans Administration and she got recruited to become a faculty member at the University of Minnesota, which is where she finished her career. And my dad was a professional musician. He played the trombone and he, loved jazz, but he was willing to play any music to make a living. So he played everything from, Polka to, Some rock and roll anything, but he wound up getting a job as a music teacher in a prison in Minnesota back in 1950, which was really radical for a black man to, get a job like that. And he, Then had this full-time job and he would just work part-time at playing music on the side. But he had a band, He organized the band of the prisoners in the reformatory and He actually had, Count Basey and his band come to the prison and play and he had Duke Ellington's Band minus Duke Ellington come and play. Cuz my father got offered to go on the road with Count Basey a couple times, but he demured both times because he had a family and he wasn't willing to go out on the road.

AO: 7:15

Oh, he gave up something that he would've really wanted to have done for his family. That's so admirable.

Dr Stanley Berry: 7:22

Right. it is indeed. Very hard working, as with my mother. So we got instilled with, work ethic very early on. We grew up in. A working class community except the community had some affluent members that had some very poor members that had middle class members. And I tell everybody that we were dead in the middle. We weren't upper, we weren't lower, we were in the middle. I had everything I needed and some of what I wanted. And I loved. The upbringing that I had, because it was for Minnesota, which is not a culturally diverse state even today, even though it's much more so than when I grew up. We had a fairly culturally diverse neighborhood and school. The schools we attended were pretty culturally diverse for that time in Minnesota,

AO: 8:12

So you wanted to be a writer. You were, knew that when you were younger. Where did medicine come into this? Where did your career for most of your life, why and how did you then choose that field? And not even just medicine? Why did you choose the field that you chose?

Dr Stanley Berry: 8:31

Okay, Well first, as for medicine, I was an English major in undergrad, and I tell everybody that I was a failed English major. I never did get an undergraduate degree. Unlike most of the world in terms of medical education. Instead of going right out of high school or a levels into university in a medical school program for six years in, in the United States, you go out of high school, then you do four years of college, and then you do four years of medical school. And for me, I was really floundering in college as. English major. I loved to read, I loved novels and I dropped in and out of school a number of times, and one of the times I dropped out, I read Ernest Hemingway's novel of Farewell to Arms, which was about an ambulance driver in World War I, and I loved Hemingway's style, although he was quite a despicable person in many ways. But at any rate, I loved his writing and I literally put down the book, picked up the telephone and called the local ambulance service in Minneapolis, the public one, and asked if they had any job openings and they said they did. I applied, I got job. I went through two levels of training, the basic training, and then advanced paramedic training. And after about a year I told myself, if you got some discipline, which I had very little, I could do this, So I worked full time and went back to school and took a year of chemistry in two months over the summer. And then I took more courses. And then after another year I decided that I really did wanna make a go at trying to get into medical school. So I quit my job and went back to school full time and, you know, there were some bumps in the road. I didn't get into medical school the first time I applied, but the second time I applied, I did, I guess it's kinda like the novel. And then when I was in medical school, the only thing I knew that I did not wanna do was emergency medicine because I had been on the ambulance for two years and I didn't particularly care for it, not because of any blood or gore or anything, but you didn't get to know your patients and most of the people who you picked up for emergencies were not emergencies at all. And I just didn't want to do that. Go ahead.

AO: 11:03

pre-warning. I will do this. I say stuff that's not relevant. A friend of mine used to be a paramedic and she did it for years, and I said to her, Oh, I think maybe I want to do that. And she actually said no. She said she didn't like it because actually in the end, Most of the time they were spending driving around and picking up people who were too drunk and I'm not saying that makes this career not worthy, but she said in the end it just it wasn't satisfying for her. She didn't really feel she was making a proper difference and that she being able to help people. And when you said that, it just just reminded me of what she said to me.

Dr Stanley Berry: 11:43

Right it and you get burned out, and then you look at some of the drivers around you who've been at it for 20 years and. Their view on society and life was just so negative about everybody, and I certainly didn't wanna wind up like that. So I, chose a different path and it worked out. And, then when I went to medical school, I did all my rotations and I liked something about all of them, but nothing enough, to actually want to. Go into that specialty. And the last rotation I had was o and g, as you guys would call it, obstetrics and gynecology, and. I remember telling a friend of mine who would graduate, and I sure hope I like this specialty because if I don't, I don't know what I'm gonna do. And the point of fact, I fell in love with it. And so I decided to pursue a residency in obstetrics and gynecology. It had a little of everything. It had some internal medicine, it had surgery, it had radiology. It just endocrine, nephrology, cardiology. It had a little of everything and I got very fascinated with the high risk side of it and the fetal medicine side of it, because at that time in the mid eighties it was, The dawn of widespread, ultrasound use. And it was always fascinating to me that I could see the second patient, but I couldn't touch the second patient or, directly take care of it. But I could check on it. And eventually more and more techniques became available for being able to touch that second patient. And that's actually why I came to the UK to learn some of those technique. And then to watch the sophistication of the machines just grow and grow and the images get clearer and clearer. it was fantastic to be around, to witness the progression in the technology and to be a part of, the ability to actually treat the fetus directly for some conditions. and my niche became, Doing fetal blood sampling and doing fetal transfusions. In the case of, RH disease would be the, typical or the most common, blood incompatibility between mother and fetus, where the mother makes antibodies that cross from her body into the fetus and start destroying its blood. And actually, in order to save some of these fetuses and ensure that they're born healthy, you have to do a number of fetal transfusions during the pregnancy. And those techniques, I learned while I was in the uk and they had a huge influence on my career because I would then get referrals when I came back here. I would get referrals from all over. The state really because of the, skill I was able to develop based on my training with, Mr. Nicolaides.

AO: 14:56

Wow. I guess maybe because I was born in the eighties and obviously people have children, you have an ultrasound and it's just day to day, sometimes, I'm not really sure that we are aware that actually this didn't used to be the life, for you. It was new and actually quite amazing because it was so specialist.

Dr Stanley Berry: 15:16

Yes. At the time it was, and it's funny because at the time it was very specialized and then, some of the tests, because there were other. Uses for it. Besides transfusing the fetus, you could rapidly assess chromosomes within 24 hours, but that's all been turned upside down now because most of those, indications for doing the fetal blood sampling are no longer indications cuz they're better, safer technology around to accomplish the same thing. So now we're at a point where fellows going through training hardly. See the procedure, let alone do it enough to get any skill at it, but it's still needed in those few cases. And, in America There's not enough concentration on making a specific center. The specialist center. And part of the reason for that is because, we don't have socialized medicine. So hospitals compete with one another and although there's not enough cases at a particular hospital to keep somebody really skilled at the procedure, they may offer it anyway. Just because it's, a way to attract patients and dollars

AO: 16:32

I It's very different over here because we've got the National Health Service Where do, Okay, I've never thought of this before. So where do hospitals in America actually get their money and their funding from? Because it's, if it's not from, if it's not from the government and it's not from taxpayers, where does that money come from?

Dr Stanley Berry: 16:52

it comes from the government indirectly because there are two very large, government funded insurance, I guess you guys would say insurance schemes. Some of my British is coming back to me. One of them is called Medicare, and essentially Medicare is for senior citizens. you qualify for Medicare when you're 65 in most cases. If you've got some, chronic, Debilitating disease. You can qualify for Medicare earlier, even as a young person, say you've got, you know, renal failure or something like that. And then there's another government program that's funded both by the Medicare is funded by the federal government. Medicaid is, funded by a combination of federal and state funds. And that's where, hospitals. Some of the money from, And then there are lots of private insurance companies. So, a huge percentage of the population, and I can't tell you exactly if it's 50% or 60% of people have private insurance, and the hospitals are funded to that. In other words, they charge for their services and then the insurance company, pays at least a large portion. In some cases a hundred percent, but in many cases, they pay, say 80 or 90% of the charges. So that's, those are the basic ways that hospitals are funded here. Although there is private insurance in the uk

AO: 18:26

There is, but regardless to whether you have private insurance or not, you still have to pay into the National Health Service We don't get the option. I will admit that there have been times where I've said I'd rather just not pay into the NHS and just put that towards private healthcare. But even if you've got private healthcare, you still have to pay towards nhs, which I understand because we have a system where you have to consider the people who don't earn a certain amount. So how would they get healthcare if we weren't actually helping by paying the NHS?

Dr Stanley Berry: 18:57

Right. And as I told people when they came back here, even the harshest critics of the nhs, wouldn't abolish it all together. I mean, I think there are many admirable, aspects of the nhs, but of course there are some downsides too. And but when people rail here in America, when we were going through our. Last big healthcare, political fight, people would point to NHS is terrible and nobody over there wants to be in the socialized medicine. And I'd say, Well, you know, that's not the case. It has its issues, but it covers everybody.

AO: 19:35

it's a thing in the uk. Everyone loves to complain about the nhs, but if we didn't have the nhs, I suspect people would complain. we're so privileged to have the NHS and I'm just not sure people really appreciate how much so, especially when you look at other places in the world. I have a random question. I feel like my random question is also relevant. If you don't want to answer this, you don't have to. In 2020, my niece gave birth to a premature baby, and when I spoke to her, one of the questions that I asked her was, did she feel her treatment was not as good as it could have been due to the color of her skin? And didn't know if I wanted to ask this. we did have a report that was published, I'm sure it came out in 2021, highlighting that there is discrepancies between how ethnic minority groups are treated within the healthcare system and Caucasian people. Because I said to you, I'm nosy, Is it the same in America or is it different?

Dr Stanley Berry: 20:37

No, we're perfect here. We don't have implicit bias. That's why we're the greatest country on earth.

AO: 20:43

No, that a very stupid question.

Dr Stanley Berry: 20:45

No, it wasn't a stupid question at all. And there, one of the reasons, one of the many reasons it wasn't a stupid question is because there are so many people in this country that don't believe that implicit bias is a problem, although there are at least 500 medical papers addressing the question of implicit bias. And when it comes up and stares people in the face, they don't wanna deal with it. Yes. Implicit bias is a huge problem over here. And, to show you here's a great example, of the consequences of calling it out. there was a, black woman, who was appointed, she's a physician who was appointed the diversity, equity and inclusion officer for the American Medical Association, and she started calling out implicit bias and she started getting, death threats and they actually had to post security guards at her home because of it. So yes, it happens. Yes, it leads to, health disparities. I've been talking recently about, maternal and infant mortality in the United States and. maternal mortality rate here is horrible compared to the rest of the developed world. I think you guys in the UK are about 8.4 maternal deaths per hundred thousand live births we're 23.8. Maternal deaths per hundred thousand. And if you break that down, the maternal death rate for black women in the United States is 55 per hundred thousand compared to 18 per hundred thousand for white women and 19 per hundred thousand for Hispanic women. Some of that is due to, preexisting health problems, but then one can Point to examples of how implicit bias contributed to those preexisting health problems. I won't say that it's all preexisting health problems are due to implicit bias. I wouldn't say that at all because it's a lot to do with how people eat, how they exercise, where they live, the. Environmental filth that they are exposed to. But certainly when it comes time to going to, have contact with a healthcare provider, implicit bias has been shown. It's not just my opinion, the medical literature here in the United States is replete with examples of it. So, that's my short answer

AO: 23:31

Thank you. I don't I dunno what I also, Can I just say this? Even I would've asked you that question regardless of the color of your skin. because when I said to my niece there's articles that actually show. Yes. It is true. it just made me sad when she said, when she went into hospital the first time, and she said to me did it ever enter my head that I'm here People with my color are four times more likely to die. And she said, Yes, of course. It went through my mind and I just thought, imagine how traumatic that must be, that you are supposed to have a baby in September. It's May and your baby's coming and you don't know what's going on. having all of that worry, you also don't know. if you can trust the doctor, the physician, to give you the same care and attention that they would give to a Caucasian person. I also assumed that it wouldn't be any different in America.

Dr Stanley Berry: 24:30

if anything it may be worse, but first of all, the question comes up is implicit bias, a form of racism? And, and I separate racism from prejudice or bigotry. Racism implies that you have the power over, an individual, to, influence their lives, with your bigotry, right? You know, implicit to me or unconscious bias means that the person who is engaged in, carrying out, a different level of care based on color is not aware of what they're doing. And so then it comes down to is that really bigotry? Is that really racism? If the person isn't, aware of what they're doing?

AO: 25:18

That's actually a very good point.

Dr Stanley Berry: 25:19

And it's an interesting question. But everybody has it. and One of the things that I stressed when I came under so much criticism for calling this out, I said, Make no mistake about it because the incident I called out involved a white resident and a black patient, a black woman with green hair, on top of it. And I said, people accused me of accusing them of racism. I said, Listen, make no mistake about it, I'm a black man. I could be implicitly biased. I have the capacity to be implicitly biased against a black woman. the only thing we can do is train people, to try to catch themselves and point it out in a way that, you know, affects and motivates change. And always be aware, all of us, that we can have implicit bias. We just can. but we've got a long way to go,

AO: 26:16

Yes, we all do. I say that I don't think we're gonna get there in lifetime, which is a shame, but maybe we'll get there in your grandchildren's lifetime.

Dr Stanley Berry: 26:25

but you gotta be careful about that lifetime stuff cuz I've had a couple of pleasant surprises. Back in the seventies. I never thought South Africa would be free in my lifetime. And guess what? I also never thought that the, troubles, in, Ireland would end in my lifetime. And so far, even. Brexit hasn't managed to break the peace up there overall. So, the one thing that I, didn't think I would see in my lifetime, and I'm probably not, is a resolution for the Israeli Palestinian, issue,

AO: 27:00

Talking about things in your lifetime, That actually brings me onto one of my questions. I read an article from 2020 called Heroes on the Front Line and you were featured in it. So I'm going to ask this, and again, It's up to you if you want to answer. I don't wanna dwell on Covid, but I have to ask you, because you said in the article you were looking to retire and finish your novel, but you actually chose not to because of what was going on. I just wanted to ask a very basic question. Were you not scared when you decided to make that decision to go back in?

Dr Stanley Berry: 27:39

Oh, not at all. Yes, I was and let me be clear from the beginning, it turns out that I was a bit of a paper tiger because I really did volunteer to be. recreated as an emergency room physician. And I called and inquired a number of times and they never called me. I guess it could have been because of my age or, they found other people who were, more qualified. Repurposed is the word I used. I'm an obstetrician and I volunteered to be repurposed as an ER doc because Docs were getting in short supply. I did, however, spend that bad covid period going in and volunteering in an obstetrical clinic to, try to keep things moving quicker and reduce exposure times. But yes, I was, afraid, and I had, friends who. said that they wouldn't do it. But, you know, medicine has been very good to me and it was something I felt strongly about and I think. I don't know if I said this in that article or not, but I, once saw this interview, and this is getting a little tangential, but it's very relevant. I saw an interview by a, I think a special forces guy in, Somalia when the Americans came under attack. And, their comrades were left out in the field and they had to go out there and try to get them. And this commander said that one of his men told him that he was scared to go back. And he told them, It's not a matter of whether you're afraid or not, it's what you do with the fear. I believe that for a long time he Articulated it a lot more clearly than I have at different points in my life. But yeah, I have fears just like everybody else, but sometimes you just find a way to overcome your fears and move forward. And that was really how I honestly felt at the time.

AO: 29:38

Okay. I'm gonna go back to your writing. Is it a memoir of sorts or not really.

Dr Stanley Berry: 29:44

it's interesting that you bring the memoir part up because I got a lot of me in that book, And there were a couple things. I paid tribute to one of the most influential, teachers in my life. It was my fourth grade teacher. I paid homage to her in my own. And actually I spoke at a woman's book club, in, Minnesota, and I thanked her cause in the first part of the book I have thank yous and I thanked this teacher, although her name was fictionalized and everything, and I think her niece asked me if that character in the book was that woman. Her name was Thelma. Hendrickson and I said, Yeah, that was her. So that was there. And in that vignette about that teacher, I was able to talk about my feelings about the foster care system in the United States. For the most part, I was also able to talk about physician behavior in various ways. I was also able to talk. One of the most formative experiences in my life, which was being thrown out in the woods in 20 below zero weather. and the influence that had, but the characters in that book were fiction. the way the story played out, the plot was totally fiction. So it was not a memoir, although it was me,

AO: 31:08

even though it wasn't a memoir. is it releasing, Is it relaxing for you? The writing, because you must have seen a lot in your career.

Dr Stanley Berry: 31:16

Right. the writing is releasing. The rewriting is, That's the problem.

AO: 31:25

Obviously that's bit's never going to be fun.

Dr Stanley Berry: 31:28

it's not fun. The rewriting may not be fun, but it's satisfying when you finally get a sentence the way you want it. Right. But yes, an answer to your question. Yeah, I do find some. it, that the writing is cathartic in some ways. or as you put it, releasing, I'm able to, you know, do a lot, for myself in getting it out on, I would say on paper, but, getting it out on the computer. So, very much, yeah. But, I started working on another novel. It's gonna be interesting how this, what plays out. I did not plan to write this novel, but this story, like the story and a fight for full disclosure, it just stuck up behind me and kicked me in the rear end. And now I have to. Write this novel before I do anything else. And this novel has nothing to do with me. It's not something that I, you know, personally experienced. I know about it. I witnessed part of it, but I wasn't involved in it. And it'll be interesting if the same degree of, catharsis applies or occurs, in the writing of this book. I started off the book that's published and this one, questioning whether or not I can do justice to this story. I'm hoping I can

AO: 32:46

Do you want to maybe just give a little bit of a clue about this new one, You mentioned it, so a little bit? Just a synopsis.

Dr Stanley Berry: 32:59

right. I will only say this. it's a black family tragedy. and that past that, I'm not gonna say any anymore. It doesn't have anything to do with medicine.

AO: 33:12

Okay. Okay, fine. That's like the smallest spoiler ever, which doesn't really tell me anything But okay. Now, if you could say something to your younger self, anything at all, what would you say to him?

Dr Stanley Berry: 33:27

I would say get some discipline, and get on with it. don't waste as much time. I don't look back and regret that quote on quote wasted time, cuz I had a lot of fun and all. I could have been moving forward, but in the end I'm happy with where I am. so that's not it. But I may have gotten a lot more done on the writing side, and I think that what happened was when I finally made the decision to do medicine, that the act of trying to get into medical school enforced discipline on me that I just didn't have before. So that's what I would tell my younger self is to just get some discipline and figure out what you wanna do. I think it was Mark Twain that said the two most important days in a person's life are the day you were born and the day you figure out why and the day, I figured out why, took longer than. The average, I believe, or as the French would say, the process of finding my rice home detra a reason for being. that's what I would say.

AO: 34:38

Okay, I give an opinion, and last time I have been told off by people for given opinion, so I just have to respect that. That's what you would say and not question it or say something else. I'm just gonna say, Okay, thank you. That's what people would tell me to say. What I really want to say is, Okay, so your point, and you would've maybe if you could go back in time or if you could meet your younger self, but then you would've missed all the things that you have managed to do. And you've still got to a place where you've written your book, you've published. I know I asked the question, but I also am not really sure. I believe in, I dunno if I'm a big believer in going back. I'm quite big on, we are where we are. That's just that's just my opinion.

Dr Stanley Berry: 35:27

And in the end, I agree with you. That's the paradox in my saying, I would've told myself to get discipline earlier than I did, because I'm quite satisfied on many levels with where I am right now. I don't go around saying that I don't have any regrets, but I have few regrets. Yeah. So you don't have to be Afraid of me. trying to say something negative about your opinion of it. it's enlightening I agree with you. it's a trade off. You could have gotten disciplined earlier, but then you would've missed out on a lot of stuff that you did.

AO: 36:01

Thank you for doing this. Can you please tell me and please tell people listening where they can get a copy of your book from.

Dr Stanley Berry: 36:09

My website, which is Stanley m Barry, b e r r y, one word Stanley, m like michael barry.com. And you can get the book either, there are two buttons there for Amazon and Barnes and Noble. so you can press one of the buttons and it'll take you right to the page, on those vendors and you can purchase the book. the book really is about a woman who, goes to the hospital for a routine surgery. Things don't go well at all, and the department chairman steps in and pledges to tell the family the truth about what happened. But the hospital then has to decide whether they're going to. Be transparent as they've pledged or whether they're gonna revert to their, secrecy and finger pointing ways of old. So that's the, what the book is about in a nutshell. But that's where it's available. And there's some videos on there

AO: 37:10

Thank you so much.

Dr Stanley Berry: 37:11

Take care. Bye-bye.

AO: 37:13

Thank you for listening. I am going to put in all the links to where you can find further information about Dr. Barry, including links to where you can get his book from and also his website and the article that we talked about so I will put that in the show notes. So please click Thank you. Bye.