There does not always need to be a conculsion

This episode I spoke to Patrick Greenwood ahead of his book Sunshine in Saigon.

We talked about the book and Vietnam, looking at the history of the County and why he felt compelled to be able to go there.

I also got the opportunity to speak to someone who loves Vietnam as much as I do!

https://www.amazon.com/Sunrise-Saigon-Patrick-Greenwood/dp/1649796900
https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/23073155.Patrick_Greenwood
https://www.linkedin.com/in/patrick-greenwood-4876a01b8/tl?trk=people-guest_people_search-card&original_referer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuUepQta56s
https://www.who.int/vietnam/news/detail/10-12-2018-viet-nam-reports-reduced-road-traffic-deaths

Please note transcription accuracy may vary.

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Transcript

Patrick: 0:00

part of the journey in life is that we want to be able to get better, be better, and become better.

AO: 0:05

Welcome to another episode of Chataholic this episode I speak to Patrick Greenwood, the author of multiple books, but he's the author of a book called Sunrise in Saigon, but I wanted to speak to Patrick because. I'm obsessed with everything to do with Vietnam I wanted to speak to someone else who loves Vietnam probably even more than I do.

Ads: 0:30

Hi Patrick. Thank you so much for joining me. Would you mind sharing anything about you, where you're from, anything you are happy sharing,

Patrick: 0:41

Oh, wonderful. Thank you and good morning, and thank you for having me on this morning. Absolutely. Patrick Greenwood. I'm actually based in Carlsbad, California, which is just north of San Diego. I'm actually been in the cybersecurity field, uh, for about 27 years. I didn't really start writing professionally until probably around 2019 is when I first started writing the first novel, which is Sunrise and Saigon. I write often. I have six books that I've written that I'm bringing to market in the next four years as part of a series. And they all kind of deal a lot with cyber terrorism. cycling, of course, uh, coffee, a lot of romance, a lot of intrigue. But I tend to write books about places I've traveled to. So in the first book really kind of took off from when I first started, went to Vietnam the first time. And then my other books, you knowingly do the same in other countries as well. But I love writing. I write professionally today. I write a lot of blogs for clients, worldwide. And I also do a lot of, you know, research writing for clients as well.

Ads: 1:40

So would you just, I think my main thing is because I've been to Vietnam

Patrick: 1:47

Sure.

Ads: 1:48

I wanted to go to Vietnam because I've always had this thing about the war and what's it like there and everything that I've read, which has been quite. Biased towards the western world and I wanted to go there and see it and speak to people. So I will get to my point. I'm sure I read somewhere that you said you were interested in Vietnam when you were younger because you experienced it at the time, not the war, but you watched it on tv. what was it like for you, especially as an American, I'm really interested to know what was it like and what was the information that you were getting in America about how well the war was going?

Patrick: 2:37

Well first that's a wonderful question. So for me, the war really resonated on a lot of levels cuz I was born in 64 when the war actually started. And I grew up, you know, early on in, you know, being four or five years old where you saw everything from, you know, the different assassinations in America, the rioting at the college campuses, protests going on. I mean, a lot of us that grew up in the late seventies, you know, saw a lot of that. And in 75 when Saigon actually fell, I remember listening to the broadcast on the radio when I was 11 and actually heard the actual, uh, you know, we interrupt this broadcaster, let you know that Saigon has just fallen. And that was April 30th, 1975. I remember listening to that on the radio and I was always like, How did it fall? Why did it fall? Why are we there? And a lot of us, you know, they were very young back then, had no idea the politics and the problems and the corruption that was going on that really resulted in the war. And then as the late seventies sort of kind of came about and you saw more and more problems in America, it all kind of stemmed back to what really happened in Vietnam. Why did we really go and, and why did we stay 10 years? And so I was always intrigued by not only the country, but I was very intrigued on why we did what we did. And then when I was in the military in the 1980s, I ran into a lot of Vietnam veterans that were still in the service at the time. Yes.

Ads: 3:59

I have a question. Which is, it's because you mentioned part of your history and part of your career, why did you join the military? and what did you do?

Patrick: 4:12

Oh. So I joined the military in 1982 and I was a dead year of college. And I decided that at the time, college wasn't really what I wanted to do with myself. I wanted to travel, um, always intrigued by the military, but there was also a hidden desire to want to be stationed in the far east. I didn't actually was stationed multiple times in Japan and Philippines and other places as well and all it was just like sort of like, well, if I'm there, will I ever get a chance to go to Vietnam? And back then you couldn't get on a plane and go to Vietnam in the eighties, you had to wait 20 years before you can really travel there. But you did see a lot of refugees. We saw a lot of refugees when I grew up in Northern Virginia that, were moved there when they were either both people survivors or they were migrated there. So I, I did have a lot of Vietnamese, you know, communication with people, so always intrigued by the people. But the military for me, I was, in communications and technology. And I loved it. It was a great, obviously great, you know, specialty to be part of, but what was intriguing to me was how many people in Japan were Vietnamese that were refugees that I would run into when I was stationed there. And instead of them being bitter or being hostile or being, you know, kind of like, you know, not very pleasant. They were the most warm and friendly people. Even for all the turmoil they've been through. They have this incredible genuineness to them that I just was like, how can they be? this way these should be like people that are just resentful and, and no, they were very thankful to be out of the country. They were very thankful that they were living in Japan or Alaska or anywhere else that they were relocated to. they've always intrigued me because of that inner kindness that they have.

Ads: 5:45

You're right. that's one of the things I picked up and I asked where I was staying. I asked one of the ladies there, She was quite young, so she was not around. So I said, okay, well what have you been told? And she explained it to me and she also said, even now in her village where she lives, there's still landmines that go off all these years later. I couldn't understand why she was, I. There wasn't any hostility I felt a little bit ashamed. I felt a bit angry for her, for all of them,

Patrick: 6:24

Yes.

Ads: 6:24

but I didn't get that from them at all.

Patrick: 6:27

not at all. Great lesson to be learned though on this because what I really discovered in my time there, and I went there three times 2012, 2013, 2014, was when you understand what happened on April 30th, 1975 when the tanks rolled down the street, blew right through the gate. They captured the president, they took the president away, the country unified. Now it, it wasn't pretty and it wasn't pretty for several years after the unification, particularly people that were loyal to the south and you know, the communist government of the north. And there's a lot of turmoil, a lot of pain. People suffered post Vietnam war, especially Vietnamese people that were trying to get out of the country. But at the same time, when you do meet younger Vietnamese people today and you ask them, do you remember the history? Oh, that's our date of unification. That's our independence day. I'm like, okay. that's to them is their views what independence was. It no longer was two countries that became one. Now it wasn't pretty, it wasn't, you know, anywhere humane in any form, but it did unify. And then the eighties when they had to go and battle in Cambodia against the Kim Rouge and they had to go up against the Chinese in the seventies, you know, these were, the country has been in a lot of turmoil going back to the 1930s. So it wasn't until the nineties when they actually started having some resemblance of a, of a whole country. And that's where prosperity came. You know, foreign countries started coming in and people brought in industry and people started developing some commerce. And then in the two thousands it just completely took off and became, you know, like a developing nation. But when you do talk to the younger people, you can tell that they were educated on everything prior to 1975 was sort of a blur and everything after 1975 was a certain narrative that, you know, the country wanted to push forward with. And in some ways that may have helped the country move forward by not living in the past, you know, the whole time as well.

Ads: 8:58

I think you're right. And the reason I think that is because if I am not going to say, my partner says something to me sometimes, why can't, why can't people just get over it? And I'm like, well, it's not that simple. It's simple of just get over it. But then when you just said that, I thought, well, for the Vietnamese people, they aren't dwelling on things that happen in their history. They're just moving, they're moving forward.

Patrick: 9:28

And I, I wonder why that is. there was a, Korea did not have a conclusion. Korea had a line drew between the country and said, okay, you're north, you're south, and now there's this military zone and you guys will work out your peace. They're still separated, you know, 70 years later. Right? And you look at Iraq and Afghanistan and Kuwait and Libya and, and Syria and all these modern day problems, there's no conclusion. Now. If there's no conclusion, there's no starting point of going forward. And I think what Vietnam did, you know, right or wrong, or how they did it. But what they did is they basically said, this is the beginning, this is the end. This is the going forward and going forward. This is how our country's gonna run. And they ran it that way. Now, there was a lot of bloodshed and there was a lot of, you know, less and stellar things that happened, but it did at least give them a place to move forward. The problem is all these other conflicts that have happened after that, they've all lingered. You know, you pull out of Afghanistan, you think it's over. No, it gets worse. So because they had an ending, there was a benefit to the ending. And the problem is that in all these other wars and conflicts that are really destroying, you know, a lot of parts of the world, there's no ending, there's a continuum and now becomes another phase of a problem instead of a problem ending. And so I think that may have helped Vietnam kind of move forward with the fact that they did have a very clear ending beginning, you know, moment.

Ads: 10:47

So in my head I will always understand why people fought in World War I and World War ii. I will always get that, and I will always be so grateful for them. I don't really know. I struggle now with, Actually, do you really need to get involved in Hmm. Iraq? Comes definitely to mind. I'm not even going to dwell on Afghanistan, but for you to commit to that, your outlook must be very different to mine. my outlook is from a civilian who doesn't really know what goes on. So actually I think I'm just asking you to just give me a different opinion. I'm definitely open.

Patrick: 11:38

So, and you bring up wonderful points and let me kind of help maybe give you a different perspective. Okay. When you look at Vietnam in the 19, late 1950s, you had the French occupied it as a colony, and they did it for everything. Everything under the hood you can possibly imagine. Now, Michelin was a big part of it because they needed the rubber trees to make tires. So a lot of war after World War ii. Now World War II was different because there was really, really one really bad guy and three other really, really bad people. And it was, it was easy. Hitler was the figure fingerprint, or the Japanese, or whoever, the Italians, whoever. There was always a figure point of saying, okay, after that you start getting into ideology, you start getting into people's beliefs. Not a person. Korea was not a person, it was a belief. It was, you know, Vietnam, when France lost in the fifties in Vietnam, they were kicked out because they were there because of money, right? We got involved because we didn't want the spread of an ideology, but also we wanted to make sure, was there a way that we could make money, right? And the moment that money and war started mixing, instead of really going after and making the world a safer place, when money took over, the ideology of making the place safe is when everything went to hell. So when you think about 10 years of Vietnam and you know, people making money, building weapons, building bombs, spreading bombs, selling weapons, right? Going after the rubber, going after the oil, going after the sugar, going after all the other national resources. Then when you think about Iran in 79, which was all about oil. right? Then you think about the 1980s, you know, when you get into Afghanistan and Russia, it was all about the resources. And then you get into the nineties, you get into all the other things, all the other proceeding things have to do with it. Iraq in 2003 was all about oil money and conquering. It was about creating this idea that you're gonna control the Muslim world in some way. And the sad reality that many people don't realize is how much money the US had to borrow from China to pay for the war. And now China is taking the interest payments that America has to pay China to fund their own military, to create the problems of today that we're gonna see tomorrow. So when you really think how bad Iraq was, Iraq was not only really bad in 2003, but it was really bad in 2022 because now we're paying 4 trillion of debt plus. that other countries are using to take the money we're giving them to buy their weapons, to now create the next generation warfare that they're now fighting. So we made such a terrible mistake in 2003. Now in 2001, going into Afghanistan after the, you know, 911. Yes. Made sense. It was like, okay, yeah, we gotta show that we're gonna go and do something. But it didn't mean that you had to stay. Right. The problem is there was no plan, there was no, okay, we're doing this. And Iraq in 2003 was nothing more than a regime change. We have no business doing that. Now, granted, he was killing a hundred thousand of his own citizens, but there was a million people that were killed in Darford in the same timeframe. Right. And in Rwanda and other countries that saw far more humanity crisises than Iraq was, you know, so when the fact that they made a decision to go into Iraq versus going into Africa, it's like, well, wait a minute. Okay, make up your mind here. Where's your moral compass? You know? And I think they, they were driven by money and greed. And now you look at it 20 years later and how much debt the United States is in because of these foreign, you know, evasions, whatever you want to call it. it's crushing our economy and it's going to continue to crush our economy. So I totally agree with you saying Iraq was a mess and, and everything. We pretty much have gotten into Libya, Syria, you know, Iran. I mean, it's all a mess. And there there's no solution because we're trying to stop an ideology instead of stopping what we think is a problem.

Ads: 15:28

Okay. Thank you. Thank you for answering. I will get back now.

Patrick: 15:33

no, it's good. No, it's good because that, that also was a big, what you just asked was another big portion of what motivated me since I was 11, to want to go to Vietnam. Because what really hurt early on is when the war was over and you saw a lot of the veterans coming home and they were treated incredibly badly by the American citizens, American government, and then you saw the refugees coming and they were treated, you know, with a lot of, you know, racism and things like that. It was like, this is not America that we remembered. This is just like we're taking in people and we're treating them awful. And when, you know that America lost 58,000 people in the Vietnam War, but Vietnam lost 3 million people in 10. So putting it in perspective thinking, okay, Alright. We're all our, obviously our news reports and our television's gonna show us only a small segment of it, but to really get to the truth of what Vietnam is, you have to go there. And I wanted to go there since I was 11 and it took until 2012 before I actually had a chance to really go there.

Ads: 16:33

what was it like when you actually finally got there?

Patrick: 16:37

Well, I had multiple reasons to go. So obviously cycling was a big part of it. cycling to me has always been a therapy, you know, for, for a lot of personal reasons. So I was a big, still a big cyclist, psychologist you can see all over the world. that was one. Number two was really about trying to find the Catholic nuns that were around in the 1970s that actually helped get a bunch of orphans out of the country. and I always asked the question, you know, growing up Catholic, going, well, why did the nuns stay? I mean, the country's about to go into complete chaos and they were at the cornerstone of shuffling, you know, getting children out as soon as they could on these flights and trying to find them was a real life journey as well. and then also just once I got there, I got off the plane at, you know, at the airport in Saigon, well ho chi mihn City now, but got off the plane. It's like you're looking around thinking, what am I gonna expect? Everyone was friendly, everyone was nice. You walk in the international gallery when you get out of customs and people are taking your picture and they're like, and you think like, okay, I'm not a movie star people, I'm just a regular dude, you know? And people are like, stopping. They kind, I get a picture with you. I'm like, yeah, alright. And it just was like, this is like one of the most warmest recept. Yes, I, I've ever had going into a country, and even from there to when I got to the hotel and all the hotel workers were just the most wonderful people. It's like I was waiting for somebody to come up and give me the how dare you finger Instead. it was quite the opposite. They were, it was just warm and incredible people.

Ads: 18:03

They are, I could speak to anyone who's been to Vietnam all day long. how did you find the nuns and what was, what was that like?

Patrick: 18:13

So I wrote that in the book. So that's, Oh, yes. Oh, yeah. I forgot to say to you, don't give away spoilers, please. So, uh, but a but a high side of the story, uh, and again, remember this, this was a fictional novel, written with, you know, inspired by true events. It's kind of how the book was crafted. So, uh, part of the non-fictional part of the story was that, was trying to find the nuns was incredibly difficult. But I did find, one of the employees at the hotel I was staying at, which was the Renaissance Hotel in, in district one that did go to church on Sundays. And I think she was one of the waitresses, or no, she was actually, I think the coffee lady downstairs. And I was just talking to say, Hey, do you remember this story? And she kind of gave me the, no, but I do know a story of nuns that took care of orphans. Wow, where are they? And she said, you know what? I go to church there and Sunday, I'll take you. So we actually went to church together and sure enough, after going to service and then kinda walking around the building and knocking on a huge steel door and getting behind the steel door, It. four of'them were actually still there and they were still alive. And uh, so I covered that a lot in the book. But to actually physically walk into the convent of where they were living today in modern time was like completely, a journey. Well, journey well done is that is kind of how I felt when it was over.

AO: 19:34

is it a spoiler? If I ask you if you found out why did they stay

Patrick: 19:40

I did, I put it in the book

AO: 19:42

Okay. I will move on from that. it's about your cycling.

Ads: 19:48

You said cycling gave you a different view on life and you are always looking forward and not looking back. why did you get into cycling? And I know what you mean, but what do you mean by you're not looking back? You're only looking forward?

Patrick: 20:07

Well, so many times when you bring up a wonderful point earlier, as people have a hard time getting over things, right? And so when you're going through everything from, in my case, in my true life, having bad health, being, you know, obviously in having, you know, troubles and challenges in life and marriage and things, you have to find ways to move forward. And when I was in Vietnam and I was cycling, and you got to see some districts that were looking like, God, this looks like Singapore. The buildings were tall, the skyscrapers looked beautiful. Everything looked clean. You make a left turn down the wrong alley and suddenly it looks like something at a complete despair. And so when you're looking at that from a cycling level, you're not looking back on what you just passed. You're kind of looking forward. And what really was important to me when I was cycling through there is when I would stop and see children and many of them had black teeth, right? And, and I would pull over and just look at them and look in their mouths and go, wow. And I'd look at my tour guide and say, how is this possible? they're gonna die before they're seven cuz they just drink sugar. They can't afford water. And so when you realize that, you know, that's, that's a view from the bike, that's a view from the handlebars looking down while you're cycling going, you know what? I need to stop. and you stop and you observe and you, and you learn, and you, and you take a lesson from that. And that's why I eventually invested in a water company in Vietnam, was to help create clean water for children so they can have, you know, some resemblance of something to drink other than sugar. But I would never have seen that if I wasn't cycling or if I was too hung up on things in the past that it would not give me the energy to want to pedal forward. And so cycling to me was always the ability to move forward, look for, obviously, look what's in front of you and pay attention to what's in front of you. And you may learn something. And, and sure enough, when I cycled all 67 miles that I'd cycled that week, every turn was a new adventure that I definitely took to heart.

Ads: 22:00

how long did it take for you to be able to make sure that, do you know what the sad thing is? That I know that. It didn't last through no fault of yours, but I know it didn't last and it's, I'm not going to blame it on anyone because corruption's everywhere. how long did it take for you to make sure that they actually had drinking water, Oh, actually it was how much time?

Patrick: 22:30

it was very quick actually, cuz there was already a factory existing in District 13. It was just run down, had had, was virtually falling apart. And it was actually owned by my cycle tour guide. So when he pulled over, we were on one of our major cyclones and we pulled over in this one warehouse. He goes, I gotta go in there. and I cover this in the story, there's actually a fictional part of the story that gets into the whole water thing. but that's kind of how it started was my tour guide was also a water. and so when I went into his factory the first time in, in real life, and I do cover that in the book as well to some degree, but it was definitely, you know, you saw the reverse osmosis tanks and you saw some of the products and you're thinking, God, it really smells in here. Or there's electrical burns everywhere, and you're like, wow, no wonder it's this. But the reality was they were producing water in a bottle that went on a scooter that ended up somewhere. and I saw the potential in that. And I turned to him and said, you know, what? Do you really need to kind of make this better? You know, make it more affordable. Make it to where anybody can throw in a couple of dong, you know, dollars and, and, and have a bottle of water for the children or, or a bigger bottle for their grandma or something. And, you know, he gave me a number and I said, okay, I'll, let me see what I can do. So when I came back to America, I shipped him some money and said, okay, why don't we start doing this? And over time, the factory became cleaner. more productive. Uh, and then within three to six, within the three months we started having new products. We had a sports bottle and some other stuff coming out as well. and for the first year it was very productive and the proceeds of the water sales went to the children and the nuns orphanage to help support them. So not only did I find the nuns, but I turned the water business profits into supporting them for the, for the first year. and I do cover some of that, you know, in the book as well. Now, what happened to the water company That, that you have to read the book for but part of the proceeds did go to both Buddhist temples and also to the Catholic nuns as well. Do you think they as a country need more people coming in and actually putting into, just into help them? when I was there, stayed in this lovely accommodation and it was towards, it is a beginning of Covid, so. There was barely anyone there, which sounds bad, but it was actually really lovely because there was only four tourists there and they kept on putting out food, breakfast, lunch, dinner, and I said to them, do you think maybe you should stop putting out all this food because it's just wastage and where is this food going? Like maybe you should give this food away, and they said to me, no, anything that's not eaten or now, or anything that we've still got sitting there, we are sending to local schools.

Ads: 25:20

that also filled my heart with warmth because in the uk, probably not now, but not that long ago, if there's wastage, it just gets binned. I don't agree with that. listening to you doing something so big to help them. What could people do to just support the communities there?

Patrick: 25:43

Great question. So I I, I do kind of talk about it in the book a little bit about

Ads: 25:48

Patrick, stop saying that saying that

Patrick: 25:50

the, in a little bit of a section of the book. I do cover it. But in the, in the book, there is a romantic love interest that Jack Jack's, the main character Jack. Character Jack is, Jack Kindle's the main character. Um, and one of the reasons he went to Vietnam was also to be able to meet Lynn, who he kind of was communicating with online for, for quite a while. And in one of their conversations, he kind of looks up at this telephone poll and it has like a thousand wires everywhere. And he goes, and he's like, well, why don't, why doesn't your country kind of. You know, the wires, because in America, everything is nice and neat and it's regulated and it's underground and it's protected and it's got all this stuff to it. And Vietnam's put together with bandaids and, you know, and, and, and rubber tape. You know, and, and she kind of in the book, you know, Lynn talked about going, that's how we are. And in some cases, by us trying to come in and, and Americanize people like we tried in, in other countries where he is, oh no, no, you need roads, you need schools, you need concrete, you, you know, you need all these things that we can sell you. You go into countries like Vietnam, they're like, you know what, we could string it together with bamboo and, and string and we're fine. And the funny thing was that during the, during the tour when I was running, into some of the outlining districts and thinking, I almost got, my helmet on my bike almost got hung up on a wire that was a telephone wire, it was running between trees. And I kinda looked at the guide and said, Hey, you know, aren't you guys gonna fix this? He goes, no, it works. So sometimes you do have societies that say, we're good because, you know, we've adopted, we've overcome, we've worked together, we've collaborated with ourselves to figure out a way to make do, instead of having a perfect car, they're okay with a car with three wheels, cuz they know it still moves forward. Right. Versus us coming in saying, oh no, no, you need six wheels on a car. No. There's some countries that say, yeah, we're okay. And I think Vietnam has that culture. I think they do have that, that kind of foot spot to them, that they have that kind of guts to them, that they're willing to tell the world, no, I think we're okay. we've got this going, we're gonna make it work. and the funny thing is they really do.

Ads: 27:53

I know, and actually I feel a little bit disappointed in myself for being that's such a Western attitude to think, okay, what can we do to help them when actually I've been there and. They're not actually asking for help. They're actually very, very happy.

Patrick: 28:12

They are. And, and, but the nice thing is a lot of countries in the world are like that and, and I think the West, particularly America misinterprets that as an opportunity to go in and say, boy, if we could build you guys a freeway, you know, and they're looking like, why it's a dirt road. It still works. we don't quite guess up because it goes back to that corruption. It goes back to that greed. It goes back to, boy, we can make a lot of money. And I think in Afghanistan, not to deviate, but Afghanistan was like that after 2001. It was like corporations went in there, like Microsoft and others that went in there to say, if we could educate all these Afghan women on technology. did anybody ever ask them if that's what they really wanted? So I think Vietnam always could take help. And you know, that's where Helmets for Kids came from. So I actually, the proceeds of my book actually go to helmets for Kids programmed in Vietnam to help provide safe helmets for kids riding bikes. And that was one of my nice things about the book was the proceeds season that will go help support that. But that was a, that charity was started in 2000 by Bill Clinton when he was president. And that was on his very first trip to Vietnam, was he started that. He said he looked around going, wow, kids are riding everywhere, but you know, they're, they're running up against cars and scooters and they're getting wiped out and there's no protection. So, you know, when I started providing, you know, proceeds to helmets for kids, it was my small way of saying, here's where I can help. But they didn't solicit me and say, oh, hey, we're looking for more donations. No, it was quite the opposite. I actually reached out to them and said, Hey, I think this is a worthy cause. Can I help contribute to it? And they're of course perfect, you know, great. We'd love to have you. But it wasn't like they were reaching for it. It was quite the opposite. I was wanting to, you know, to kind of get involved with them.

Ads: 29:56

Okay. Not, not part of my Western trying to save the world, but I am going to put the link in the show notes But you are right. we have this Western attitude of, okay, Don't really know what to say because yes, I'm disappointed with myself Sometimes you don't have to help everyone. Sometimes people actually, people don't want help, so people are happy how they are.

Patrick: 30:30

Even the soldiers working in the streets with their batons directing traffic stopped and bowed and gave me a handshake. And I'm like, do you understand? I'm an American like, oh, just keep going. You know? And it was just the most incredible thing I'm thinking I was gonna hit over the head. I was gonna get dragged off to jail. Quite the contrary. It was no even it, it was completely different. I think sometimes it does make a country stronger when they can all work together. Under their terms to pull themselves up out of the mud. And I think that was one of the real strong things and real testimony of this, when you actually see a lot of Vietnamese people in America that are well educated and their children are well educated. We have third generation Vietnamese now in Southern California that are running for mayor, congressmen, senators. They're doctors, they're lawyers. And, and they all came from a generation that barely got off the boat, you know, back in the seventies and eighties. And now their grandchildren are becoming, you know, institutions. And it's just wonderful to see that. And they did it all by just working hard, you know, having persistence, having determination, but learning to do it within their wheelhouse, within their realm. and I commend them for that. So, not only do I have a lot of, you know, love and praise to the Vietnamese people in Vietnam, but I also have a lot of Vietnamese friends here in America.

Ads: 31:47

when I was there, my partner said to, one of the young ladies there, said, well, you know, anytime you want to come to England and you can stay with us and anytime you want to visit, and she looked at him. She said, but why would I, I don't need to. I'm not interested. I have everything that I want and need here. Yes, speaking to you has reminded me of that, so thank you. of course.

Patrick: 32:16

just a bit of a random question. Again, still linked to the war because I've always wanted, I heard this on a podcast really recently where they said, even now most Americans don't actually know that they didn't win the war when it came to Vietnam.

Ads: 32:36

And I did put in my notes personally, well, you know, you clearly got my opinion about war. I don't really believe there's winners or losers, mm-hmm.

Patrick: 32:48

Oh, no. I, I think America knew they lost a war in the sixties. I think that a lot of the parents, like my parents' generation, all were, you know, in their thirties, professionals going to school in the sixties. They all knew the war was lost before it even was won. And I think that the, where we came into it when I was 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 years old, I remember Richard Nixon, I remember Nixon getting a PhD. I remember Munich Olympics. You know, there was so much turmoil going on in the seventies that you just knew something wasn't right. So when the war finally ended in 75, we were already seen. Refugees on tv. We've already seen both people, we've seen people be relocated. We've seen veterans coming back and getting, you know, spit on, on the airport and being called baby killers. All that was front page news since the early seventies. So there was no doubt in anybody's mind that the war was lost and, and when, so when the war ended, it was sort of like, thank God, you know, it was like, okay, finally. But it took 10 years for this to happen, and for many people the war should have ended in 68 when, you know, when everything went bad. And why did it take that long to get out of the country when many people felt we shouldn't even be there? So it wasn't like all of a sudden like, okay, the war's over. It was already over years before it really was over. And then in 76 when Carter became president, you know, then you went, we went into a terrible recession. Financially in the country. So now we had even more trouble with the country, with economics and other problems. And then of course you had the Iran issue in 79 where we had hostages. So there was no shortage of turmoil in America. But Vietnam quickly became back news right after April as more veterans were coming home and veterans were having trouble being relocated. It was sort of like the media was sort of was like, okay, let's move on. You know? That's the past, but they had nothing positive to look forward to because there were so many other problems going on in the country. But no, I, I think then now today, I don't think people really remember the war because you now have, I'm in my late fifties and I remember, I know there's people that are still around from the Vietnam era that are in their late sixties and seventies that still live with the horror of it. But the people that are in their twenties and their thirties and their forties are now growing up with Iraq and Afghanistan and Kuwait and Libya and Syria. And Russia and Ukraine, they're growing up in a, in the same, oh God, the news is on the, the war is on the news again, or it's on social media. You know, back then it was the New York Times and the Washington Post and the LA Times, and maybe the six o'clock news if you were lucky. So I think that the now generation cannot relate to Vietnam because they already have other problems that they have. They're currently, you know, being inundated with

Ads: 35:33

that makes sense. it's true. And now we are in a different time where we also have social media, so

Patrick: 35:42

We're quickly influenced. We're very quickly influenced by today's news. Tomorrow's news is gone. Yesterday's news was forgotten. And, but remember, the other thing that also really changed dramatically, if you remember it was nine 11 was an extremely big turning point in American history because this is where now we were finally attacked, right? We went 200 something years where we didn't have anybody other than close to Pearl Harbor that even came close. And now we have downtown Manhattan, you know, in the Pentagon and Pennsylvania, you know, having these planes crashing and suddenly like, well, then there was a West Coast attack that could have happened that didn't happen, right? So that really was such a change as far as here and now it's all about Al Q. Then Vietnam was like beyond like way, way back. So, but remember the positive side of Vietnam though is that Vietnam has been seen as now a success. It's an economic success country. It's, it is tied to the supply chain of the world's manufacturing. Now, as more people are pulling out of China, where do you think they're relocating to? They're moving their factories to Vietnam, right? Google has a huge software development house in Vietnam. Now. So does Microsoft. So does HP. starting to see people building Vietnam is a success because it moved forward. Right. But I think that the good thing is that when people mention Vietnam today, they're thinking, oh yeah, video games. They're thinking manufacturing, they're thinking, you know, solar panels, they're thinking car parts. They're not thinking more, which I think is probably a really great narrative to think of.

Ads: 37:11

it is a good thing. And I didn't actually know Google Hmm. we're in Vietnam. I only know that because you said it somewhere, I said, oh, okay, well if Google it there you know them, or they're fine because Google's found their way there, so they're fine. I didn't know that. I only knew that because you said it on another, podcast that you were on,

Patrick: 37:37

Yes. And, and so FTP is the biggest technology company in Vietnam and they would rival IBM in the next, in the next generation. Cause FTP has got artificial intelligence, ex blockchain, bitcoin, cybersecurity, you know, data centers. So many people that do business in Vietnam. And remember Vietnam just shipped the very first EV car to America. So now you're seeing cars being built in Vietnam, being shipped into America. And that's such a beautiful success story. But for those of us that have traveled there, that walked among the people, they really are gonna figure this out pretty darn quick. And sure enough, they did and now they're exporting cars, so God bless them. But yeah, no, I think Vietnam is a beautiful success story. And, and I, I tried to cover that, you know, in, in the book as well, that there's a beautiful side to what happened, uh, in the country. And obviously the people that I met, and even today, I'm still very deep friends with a lot of the people that I met there. And yeah, no, I think Vietnam is a beautiful success story for sure.

Ads: 38:36

Thank you. Mm-hmm. Another question, because you said you've got more books coming. So, oh, you're not gonna tell me. So I definitely did read this where you, it says somewhere and they're not going to meet again. Patrick. Because when I saw that, I thought, I'm going to have to ask him, If it's gonna be sad, I'm not sure. I, I don't want a love story, which has ending where, you know, and then they aren't together. Okay. Okay. I'm not asking for spoilers as such, but could we just say, I'll find out when the second one comes out.

Patrick: 39:19

Actually no. So let's talk a little bit about that. Cause that's actually quite interesting. So the cover of the book is probably the most important clue of the book. That's a river. there's no bridges, there's no sand barges, there's a river. So as you're reading a book, Jack and Lynn will always have a river between them. There will never be a way for them to ever be together other than the morning on 1212 where they saw the sunrise together. So as you're reading the love story, the love story part of the book is that you have these lovers that came together for a very brief but very intense time. But as life goes, they had to go their separate ways. And they always looked over the years to say, maybe we can meet in Singapore, maybe we can do this. And it just never played out that way. But remember, part of the journey in life is that we want to be able to get better, be better, and become better. So Jack knew that he had to become a better person, and part of the reason to go to Vietnam was to discover how he can become better as a person. But it also meant that he couldn't do things anymore that he did before. And so as you get more into the book and you realize that Lynn had just as many struggles in her married life as Jack had in his, but just in a different way. But even towards, as you get towards the end, you're thinking, yes, it's gonna happen. You gotta read the book because truth, truth be told, Lynn does not make another appearance until book six, which is Sunset in Paris. So in the next book, which is code named Dragon Vault, which is due out in July of 2023, is part two in the Jack Kendall series. And Jack is now being thrusted into the world of cyber terrorism, bitcoin hacking, and some really, really terrible people doing some really awful things and using cyber terrorism to be, to do that. So, and he does have a love interest, as you can tell in the end of the book, there is a new love interest. He does have a very important role in the next book as well. But Lynn does not make an appearance until book six.

Ads: 41:20

Okay, promise last one. Do you think there will be a book every year?

Patrick: 41:31

six. So are we, how far are we in the process? a four written for are written now. I published through Austin McCauley, uh, usa, which is my publisher. And, book two, which is about in July, um, is, is really going to be the first one that really gets more back into. cyber terrorism, more international intrigue. It gets a lot more into, you know, really, really bad people doing really terrible things. book three, which comes out in probably December of 2023, is called Chores of OK Canella, which is still a continuum of Jack Kindle, but do in mind that every book coming out has new characters. It'll have new people, new plots. It'll kind of be feeding a little bit towards where Jack is going in life. And then in book four, which is called Green Kyoto, kind of gets more into Bitcoin hacking and on more of an international level, um, a as well. But there's sides in Book five, which is Bridges Over Budapest, which kind of gets a little bit back to Jack's love interest book six. He has a coming, you know, meeting Lynn again after many years of being, you know, apart aswell. But the, the next ones really get more into my background in cyber, get a lot more into international intrigue, hackers taking on hackers, that kind of realm as well. But there is obviously a romantic interest as well,

Ads: 42:53

thank you. And I'm sorry. Okay. I will not grill you anymore, but I do want to ask you, sir. you say, you said the writing. Even though you started writing a bit later on in life, Mm. has it always been a passion? And where did it start? And also, cause I, I'm gonna throw free in there, if you had one book that influenced you that you would choose on a desert island, let's say, which book would it be?

Patrick: 43:29

that's a wonderful question to ask because I, I've been dyslexic since I was a kid, so I was not the one that you grew up in life and said, oh, I'm gonna be the writer. I was the one that wrote the papers that people laughed at, or the bad spelling, bad penmanship, bad grammar, everything. Since I was a kid, even when I was an adult, I managed to still go to college and earn my master's degree. But still, writing has always been a struggle. It's not a, I can't sit down and flow it out, you know, like, and someone would look at it and laugh and go, God, where's your period in commas. But I am really good at writing stories. I'm really good at writing content. and so when I started writing the book, it was after, you know, 2019. That was five, six years since I've been to Vietnam, but I just felt it just reached the point in time where I'm ready to write it. So I sat down and I wrote the first book in three months, and then I said it to multiple editors to kind of do their, you know, their editing and things that they kind of did, you know, do what they do well. But I, I really love the writing side of it to create the story. And then I wrote the second book code named Dragonball in three months, and I wrote Storyville Cannell in three months. And these are all a hundred thousand plus Word books. So I, I went on kind of a writing, you know, terror during Covid, and then I finished the fourth book, you know, by the end of the year and started presenting it to publishers and things like that as well. The one thing that comes up and everyone reads this book is they always ask the question, How much of this is real? How much of this is not real? What, what's the fiction, non-fiction balancing line? And, and people that, people that know me are gonna know the book and go, yeah, that's definitely non-fiction But people that don't know me will, will be kind of quizzing me later on saying, okay, was this real? Was this not real? The person or book that influenced me the most was Tom Clancy's, hunter Red, October. And, and the reason I was so influenced by that book was because you really, by watching the movie and reading the book, you're going, there's gotta be some realness here. The level of detail is so granular on, in, on the military and the submarine and the processes and the Russians against the US and you know, it just seems so real. But yet no one will ever say it was the book ever, you know, non-fictional. Right. And I think the way that he wrote a non-fictional story with fictional plot lines, I think is incredible. So when I was writing Sunrise and Saigon, I had, I really kind of took the same mantra. I took this, well, like the nuns is a non, is a is a non-fictional story, but how the nuns ended was fictional. Right. Having a relationship with Lynn Example was a, was a non-fictional, fictional blend, right? Yes. You know, I had a chance to meet somebody, but no, it didn't go the way it's said in the story.

Ads: 46:05

So there's a lot of that in the blending of the story. And I think Clancy probably wrote it best when every book he ever wrote, you're thinking, well boy, that's a real great story. It's gotta be real. Probably wasn't. But it was just his imagination of how well he could blend fiction. So he's always been a tremendous influence of me.

Patrick: 46:24

Okay. I haven't ever read any of these books, plus I'm, I don't know, I my, if it's fiction, fine. It's fiction. Fiction slash nonfiction because I want to know everything. I would be the person who would be asking you, okay, I want to know what was fiction and what really did happen. And then if you said that didn't really happen, then I'd be disappointed. So, I'm just going to read it

Ads: 47:01

Well, I not going to ask any questions.

Patrick: 47:03

I'd love for you to ask questions because I have to tell you the, the ending, and when you get to the ending, you'll, you'll know this, but when you get to the ending, the ending took two weeks to write. And it's only three pages, but the last three pages took two weeks because I kept struggling with what is the continuum of the story is there are going to be a hook to feed into the next story. And one of the editors that kind of shredded the book early, wrote, wrote to me back about that. Why did you introduce this terrible guy at the end? Well, he had to be introduced some. Because the next two books, he's so prevalent, right? But he's not really the ultimate bad guy. The ultimate bad guy doesn't show up till book four. But he leads into that. And so when the editor understood that, he goes, okay, well why didn't you all just do this? I said, that would've been, that's not how book two picks up. So you have to work with editors and just give you some context of writing. When you're working with editors, they have to understand you're trying to develop a series. Many editors don't think like that. They think of just the book, and they want the book to have a beginning, a middle, and an end, or an end, beginning, middle type, you know, retrospective writing, and you really have to fight your way through editors to say, no, no, no. He had to be introduced in page 212 because in the next book, he's the opening scene. He's the opening, you know, car crash or whatever. So when you read it, think about the fact that there was a lot of clues left in the book to keep the hooks available for the next book. And when I wrote all foreign succession, I had to put hooks in the end of each book to say, now I'm leading it to book three, and then I'm leading into book four and so on. but the books can also be standalones. But when you see the ending, but just please remember, it took almost two weeks to write that ending. That was a lot of emotion to be put into that.

Ads: 48:49

What is it like when you, I promise this will be my last one, I promise. Last one. When you actually finish, not necessarily when you finish the first one, but when you finish a book, when you finish one of them, what is that like for you in terms of, I know it's not the same. When I have a podcast and then I edit it, and then I upload it, I feel like I've, I feel like I've accomplished something. But I appreciate writing a book is definitely not the same. What does it feel like when you have your baby and you finished and you can say, okay, I'm pleased with what I've done.

Patrick: 49:32

So there's a piece in the book that I wrote about the, after the nuns were found, and there's a scene in the book that talks about what now. And I think in real life when we do meet, hit a milestone, like finishing the book as an example, what did I feel like? And I think that the same feeling was when the nuns were found where there was a sense of emptiness. and there's a very powerful line in the book that talks about Jack and Miss Bowie. And Miss Bowie is one that helped him find the nuns, and she turns to Jack and says, you're just making room for what next has to happen. And I was like, okay. So when I put that in the book, it was kind of like, okay, that's, that means the journey's not over. You know, the first book is great. Second book's even better. The third one's gonna be awesome. Fourth one's gonna be fantastic. And by the time you get to book seven, you've run the gamut. But I found that when the book was finished, I, my mind was still thinking book five, book six. I didn't really have an ending. I had a continuum. And when I talked to writers today, a lot of my friend writers that I stay in touch with and they release their book and they have their big book launches and they do their book signings. And then a week later asked them, what's next? What's your continuum? Very few of'em have a continuation of what they want to do. They literally, the books out, it's published, it's on Amazon, people are buying, they write reviews. but they don't, they just go back to their lives or they go back to whatever else they did before they did this. And for me, this is my life. it is about book two and book three and book four. So I was happy when Book one was finally done, cuz it was a two year journey with the publisher to get it done. But my mind was already down the road of podcasts and thinking about what Book seven needs to look like. Is Jack gonna Die in Book seven finally? Right. You know, that, that kind of stuff. And I don't think I'm gonna hit that place that you're referring to. I think until after Book seven comes out. I think in 2027, I think is what I'm for 2028. and then I'll be almost 67 by the time that comes out but that's really when I think I'm probably gonna hit that wall and say, okay, now it's done. But no, I knew that there was other books coming that I didn't feel that the beginning was an ending. I think there was a continuum to it.

Ads: 51:47

I like that. why do we always want to put a conclusion on stuff when actually no, we don't actually need to. I like that.

Patrick: 51:56

Yep. No, I believe in the continuum very much so. Thank you. Thank you so, so, so much for Cause I know you're busy. Thank you. And thank you for putting up with me. I'm very scatty and I'm very excitable.

Ads: 52:12

No, no worries. I really enjoyed talking about.

Patrick: 52:15

Thank you. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye.

AO: 52:27

Put the links to Patrick's book where you can get it from Amazon and also, which I really feel like people should actually watch a YouTube clip. And the U YouTube clip is actually of the kids in Vietnam with the helmets on. I understand why Patrick wanted to get involved in that, because the roads over there. Honestly, when I went and I had to attempt to cross the road, I thought, I'm not sure if I can do this. I've never seen anything like it. Thank you for listening to another episode of ChatAholic and if you live in the uk, yay to spring being here.